Worship, Diversity, and Breaking Down Barriers with Lester Estelle Sr.
Courageous Conversations Study Guide
Episode Overview
In this powerful episode of Courageous Conversations from Unite KC, hosts Ray Jarrett and Gary Kendall sit down with musician and worship leader Lester Estelle Sr. to discuss his journey as a black worship pastor in a predominantly white church in Johnson County, Kansas. Through candid stories and honest reflection, they explore the challenges and rewards of integrated worship, the pressure of representation, the beauty of diverse musical expression, and why the church should lead—not lag behind—in racial reconciliation. Their message: God created diversity intentionally, and when we embrace it, we experience the world as He designed it.
Key Themes & Discussion Questions
Theme 1: The Courage to Cross Cultural Boundaries
(Timestamp: 00:35-06:04)
Key Quotes:
"The work courageous doesn't mean that we're always tackling the most difficult things... it means that this kind of conversation is one that to go in this place, to go in these waters, it probably is going to have to be intentional." - Gary
"We need to be more like heaven because when we get to heaven I think whites are going to be a definite minority." - Gary
"Where God guides, He provides... We knew what we were signing up for." - Lester
Discussion Questions:
Gary describes bringing Lester on as worship pastor at a 95% white church in Johnson County as an intentional decision to "be more like heaven." What does it mean for a church to reflect heaven's diversity? Why is this important?
Lester says, "Where God guides, He provides. We knew what we were signing up for." What kind of faith does it take to step into a situation where you know you'll face challenges because of your race?
Gary admits he was "innocently naive" about some of the challenges Lester would face. How can well-intentioned people better prepare themselves and their communities when making diversity a priority?
The hosts emphasize that courageous conversations require intentionality because our natural tendency is to avoid awkward situations. What makes cross-cultural conversations feel "awkward"? How can we overcome that discomfort?
Application Challenge:
Identify one area of your life (church, workplace, neighborhood, friend group) that lacks diversity. This week, take one intentional step to cross a cultural boundary—attend a service at a church of a different culture, invite someone from a different background to coffee, or simply start a conversation with someone you wouldn't normally engage with.
Theme 2: The Burden of Representation
(Timestamp: 18:03-22:09)
Key Quote: "There's always been an unwritten rule, or an unwritten pressure on black people who find themselves in all white settings. And the pressure is that you are now representing us. Don't make us look bad." - Ray
Discussion Questions:
Ray shares the story of Martin Luther King Jr. convincing Nichelle Nichols (Lt. Uhura on Star Trek) not to quit because of the impact she was having by being visible in a place where few black people were. How does visibility and representation matter in breaking down stereotypes?
Lester describes feeling the pressure of representation both at the City of Olathe and at Indian Creek Church, saying "You're representing a whole group of people, and you don't want to mess up." How does this burden differ from what white people typically experience in professional or ministry settings?
Lester tells his children, "You're representing an Estell. Estells mean something." How does this family pride intersect with the broader pressure of racial representation? Is this a healthy response to the burden of representation?
What can majority culture people do to alleviate this burden for people of color in predominantly white spaces? How can we create environments where people are seen as individuals rather than representatives of their entire race?
Application Challenge:
If you're part of a majority culture, reflect on whether you've ever made someone feel like they had to represent their entire race or culture. If you're part of a minority culture, consider sharing with a trusted friend from the majority culture what it feels like to carry the burden of representation. Practice vulnerability and listening.
Theme 3: Navigating Resistance and Microaggressions
(Timestamp: 10:38-12:48)
Key Quotes:
"I remember the police showing up and they were asking... 'I'm the worship pastor' and they were looking at the building and they were looking around and then they were looking at me and something didn't fit." - Lester
"Do you understand what you're doing? This is Johnson County... you don't do this in Johnson County." - Church member to Gary
Discussion Questions:
Lester shares about being questioned by police at the church building even though he was the worship pastor. How do these kinds of microaggressions accumulate over time? What impact do they have on a person's sense of belonging?
A prominent church member told Gary, "You don't do this in Johnson County. Do you understand where you're taking this church?" What fears and assumptions were driving this person's concern? How should leaders respond to this kind of resistance?
Gary responded by saying, "I believe the best days are ahead of us and I'm excited about what God is doing." How does maintaining a positive vision help navigate resistance? What role does conviction play in pushing through opposition?
Lester says about the police incident, "It's just the part of the journey... it's just the world you live in." How can we move from accepting these incidents as "just the way it is" to actively working to change the culture that produces them?
Application Challenge:
If you're in leadership, examine your organization or church for subtle barriers that might make people of color feel unwelcome or questioned. If you're not in leadership, commit to speaking up the next time you witness a microaggression or hear someone express resistance to diversity.
Theme 4: The Power and Beauty of Diverse Worship
(Timestamp: 06:30-09:01, 23:08-30:40)
Key Quotes:
"We would take some of these songs back to our congregation and they were looking at us like what are you doing? Never heard this because we were used to the two and the four and we were on the one and the three." - Lester
"The most powerful medium in the world is music... If you learned it in the form of a song, I bet you still remember it to this day." - Ray
"You got to get a swirl. You got to get something mixed up in there so that people will get that message and take it home with them." - Lester
Discussion Questions:
Lester describes the culture shock of moving between black church worship (emphasizing the 1 and 3 beats) and white church worship (emphasizing the 2 and 4 beats). How does musical style reflect cultural identity? Why is it important to honor different worship expressions?
Ray learned that by omitting hymns, he had "left out a complete group of people who were still in the audience." How can worship leaders (and other leaders) ensure they're not inadvertently excluding people through their choices?
Lester talks about adding "a gospel flair" to hymns and experimenting with reggae, smooth jazz, and blues in worship arrangements. How does creative fusion honor multiple cultures while creating something new? What does this teach us about unity?
Bill Hybels told Gary, "I don't think I've ever seen a more diverse worship team than yours." Why is visual diversity on stage important? How does it send a message about who belongs and who is valued?
Application Challenge:
If you're involved in worship or creative arts at your church, intentionally incorporate a song, style, or cultural expression that's different from your norm this month. If you're not in that role, seek out a worship experience from a different cultural tradition (attend a black church, Hispanic service, or multicultural worship night) and reflect on what you learn.
Theme 5: Rejecting Homogeneity for God's Design
(Timestamp: 32:01-35:41)
Key Quote: "I don't believe that that's pleasing to God. I think that what is pleasing to God is that we accept that he made the world diverse and he loves diversity... To deprive each other of that I think is really to keep people from experiencing the world the way that God intended it to be created." - Gary
Discussion Questions:
Gary describes learning early in ministry that "homogeneous" churches (where everyone is similar) grow faster, but he came to reject this teaching. Why do you think homogeneous groups might grow faster? Why might this not be God's best plan?
He argues that as "image bearers of God," we should reflect His love for diversity rather than pursue growth strategies that prioritize sameness. How does this challenge common church growth models? What would it look like to prioritize faithfulness to God's design over numerical growth?
Gary says, "Healthy things grow. Our growth comes from being attached to the vine... It's irrelevant if we have a homogeneous grouping or not." How does this reframe the conversation about church growth and diversity?
He concludes, "When we bring the kingdom of God to Earth, Earth becomes more like heaven." How does embracing diversity in our churches, workplaces, and communities make Earth more like heaven?
Application Challenge:
Reflect on the communities you're part of (church, workplace, neighborhood, friend group). Are they homogeneous or diverse? If homogeneous, what fears or comfort zones are keeping them that way? Pray and ask God if He's calling you to be a bridge-builder who helps your community reflect His diverse design.
Theme 6: Having a Voice at the Table
(Timestamp: 23:08-24:45)
Key Quote: "I always felt at home... I felt like I had a voice at the table. And I had an input. And people of color, when you're in a situation like that, if you can have your voice be heard, then you become a part of that discussion." - Lester
Discussion Questions:
Lester distinguishes between being a "token" and having "a voice at the table." What's the difference? How can organizations ensure people of color aren't just present but truly empowered?
He shares the story of joking in a planning meeting, "Do you think this is a year we should tell them that Jesus wasn't white?" and the room erupting in laughter. How does humor help navigate difficult topics? What does it reveal about the level of trust and safety in a relationship?
Lester says that when people of color can have their voice heard, "you become a part of that discussion. But if it's just going through the motion... that comes off really being non-genuine." How can leaders tell the difference between genuine inclusion and performative diversity?
What practical steps can organizations take to ensure diverse voices aren't just invited to the table but are genuinely heard and valued?
Application Challenge:
If you're in leadership, evaluate whether people of color (or other minorities) in your organization truly have a voice or are just present. Schedule one-on-one conversations to ask, "Do you feel heard here? What would help you feel more empowered?" If you're not in leadership, consider whether you're using your voice to amplify others who may not be heard.
Personal Reflection Questions
On Courage: Gary says courageous conversations require intentionality because we naturally avoid awkward situations. What cross-cultural conversation have you been avoiding? What's holding you back?
On Representation: Ray describes the pressure black people feel to "represent us well" in predominantly white spaces. Have you ever felt this pressure? If not, what privilege does that reveal?
On Resistance: A church member told Gary, "You don't do this in Johnson County." What fears or cultural norms in your community might resist diversity? How can you challenge them?
On Worship: Lester talks about blending musical styles to create something that honors multiple cultures. Where in your life could you "get a swirl" instead of staying vanilla or chocolate?
On God's Design: Gary argues that God intentionally created diversity and we should reflect that. Do you believe God loves diversity? How does your life reflect (or not reflect) that belief?
On Voice: Lester emphasizes the importance of having a genuine voice at the table. Do the people of color in your life feel heard by you? How do you know?
Group Activity: Musical Worship Exchange
Purpose: To experience the beauty and challenge of diverse worship expressions and discuss what we learn from each other.
Instructions:
Part 1 - Preparation (Before Meeting):
Ask group members to bring a favorite worship song from their cultural tradition or a tradition different from their own
Provide lyrics if possible
Be prepared to share why this song is meaningful
Part 2 - Sharing (30 minutes):
Each person plays their song (or a clip) and shares:
What cultural tradition does this represent?
What do you love about this style of worship?
What does this song teach us about God or faith?
Group listens without judgment, seeking to appreciate each style
Part 3 - Discussion (20 minutes):
What did you notice about the different worship styles?
Which songs felt comfortable? Which felt unfamiliar?
What did you learn about God from a worship tradition different from your own?
How can we incorporate more diverse expressions in our worship?
Key Insight from Episode: "You got to get a swirl. You got to get something mixed up in there so that people will get that message and take it home with them." Diversity in worship enriches our understanding of God.
Action Steps: Moving Forward
Based on this conversation, commit to ONE of the following this week:
Cross a Boundary: Attend a worship service, cultural event, or gathering where you'll be in the minority. Reflect on what you experience.
Amplify a Voice: If you're in leadership, intentionally create space for someone from a different background to share their perspective in a meeting or decision-making process.
Address Resistance: If you hear someone express resistance to diversity (like "you don't do that here"), gently challenge them with questions about God's design for diversity.
Expand Your Worship: Introduce a song, style, or cultural expression into your personal worship or church worship that's different from your norm.
Learn Someone's Story: Ask a person of color in your life about their experience of representation—what it feels like to be "the only one" in a room.
Examine Homogeneity: Reflect on the communities you're part of. If they're homogeneous, pray about whether God is calling you to be a bridge-builder.
Give Someone a Voice: If you notice someone being overlooked or not heard in a conversation, intentionally create space for them to speak.
Scripture Connections
While this episode doesn't extensively quote scripture, these passages connect to the themes discussed:
Acts 2:5-11 - The Day of Pentecost when people from 17 different language groups heard the gospel in their own tongue (Lester's reference)
Revelation 7:9 - "A great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" worshiping before the throne
Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"
John 15:5 - "I am the vine; you are the branches... apart from me you can do nothing" (Gary's reference to staying connected to the vine)
Ephesians 2:14 - "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility"
1 Corinthians 12:12-27 - The body of Christ has many parts, all different, all necessary
Reflection: How do these passages challenge the idea that churches should be homogeneous for the sake of growth?
Additional Resources
Subscribe to the Courageous Conversations podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube
Listen to Lester Estelle Sr.'s music on Spotify and Apple Music
Visit LesterEstelle.com for concert dates and new releases
Closing Reflection
The Challenge: "Find a friend, get a cup of coffee and start a conversation. It doesn't even have to be a person of a different color. Our culture has so many ways of dividing today. We need to cross the divide. Build bridges."
Final Questions:
What cultural boundary is God calling you to cross?
How can you help create spaces where diverse voices are genuinely heard?
What would it look like for your church or community to be "more like heaven"?
